What is an Interview?

By Tom Wolfe, Career Coach

An interview is a critical component of every job search and it usually takes a series of successful ones to generate an offer. Simply stated, an interview is a two party interaction during which each side investigates the other to find compatibility. The potential employer evaluates the candidate's qualifications, potential, interest level, and requirements. The candidate in turn determines the organization's ability to satisfy his or her needs. Most interviews are done face-to-face and occur only after a certain amount of filtering. This pre-interview filtering is important for several reasons. Since a personal interview is time consuming and costly for both parties, it makes sense to schedule it only after the obvious mismatches have been eliminated. ... Read More

9 Reasons an Employer Won't Ever Read Your Military Resume… and What to Do About it-Part 1

By: by Sultan Camp
Reprinted with permission
EveryVeteranHired.com

This is the first in a three-part series. Dear Military Job Seekers: We regret to inform you that because we have no idea how to interpret military resumes for civilian jobs, the nation's job market will continue to force veterans to take jobs you're overqualified for or jobs outside your military specialty, delaying your careers at the expense of your salaries for at least a decade. This is what a rejection letter may look like for your military resume submission, if you're lucky enough to get a rejection letter. A recent June job report gave veterans a puzzling picture. Employers added 288,000 jobs, the most jobs in more ... Read More

3 Bad Assumptions About Networking for Your Job Search

© Copyright, 2014, Susan P. Joyce. All rights reserved.

Many job seekers have told me how much they hate networking for their job search. They don't like meeting strangers, particularly when they (and the strangers) have "an agenda." They'd rather spend (waste?) time endlessly clicking on the "Apply" button on job boards than venture out into the scary world of "NETWORKING"! My favorite networking story: I witnessed three people connect with new jobs based on one conversation. And the conversation happened at the viewing/wake before the funeral of a former colleague. Not your typical networking venue! Just a ... Read More

Vets in workforce ramp up as military gears down

By Emery P. Dalesio
The Associated Press - Reprinted with Permission

FORT BRAGG, N.C. - About 1,200 soldiers were ordered and urged by Fort Bragg brass to prepare Wednesday for their future mission: transition to a civilian job. This sprawling Army post was part of an expanding effort to help soon-to-be veterans as the American military downsizes with the end of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Airborne soldiers in maroon berets and corporals in camouflage uniforms prepared for the end of their military careers by meeting civilian employers, learning to interview and write resumes, and scouting the benefits available to veterans starting the rest of their lives. ... Read More

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What is an Interview?

© Tom Wolfe, author; all rights reserved;
Excerpts from Out of Uniform: Your Guide to a Successful Military-to-Civilian Career Transition;
Used with the permission of the author and publisher, www.potomacbooksinc.com.

An interview is a critical component of every job search and it usually takes a series of successful ones to generate an offer. Simply stated, an interview is a two party interaction during which each side investigates the other to find compatibility. The potential employer evaluates the candidate's qualifications, potential, interest level, and requirements. The candidate in turn determines the organization's ability to satisfy his or her needs.

Most interviews are done face-to-face and occur only after a certain amount of filtering. This pre-interview filtering is important for several reasons. Since a personal interview is time consuming and costly for both parties, it makes sense to schedule it only after the obvious mismatches have been eliminated. This filtering process not only saves time and money but also increases the odds of an offer and an acceptance.

This mutual evaluation process has both objective and subjective elements, however most of the objective evaluation is completed before the interview occurs. An interviewer does not need to meet you to see if you are properly trained or educated for the job. A quick review of your resume will provide that information. Likewise, you do not need to sit down with the interviewer to figure out if the location and the money meet your needs. Although most of this objective screening occurs in advance, it will continue to some degree during the interview. Remember that even if the entire interview feels like objective evaluation, subjectivity determines the outcome.

Subjectivity has its roots in personality and fit: interpersonal skills, presentation, image, communication, chemistry, attitude, friendliness, style, mannerisms, and expression of interest. None of those traits come into play before the interview but most are revealed when face time begins and that face time comes in many forms. Here are the most common ones, a few variations, and a brief discussion of each.

  • Information Interview. The goal here is information, not employment. This is an excellent way to learn about a job, a company, an industry, or a career path before deciding whether or not to pursue it as part of your search. Asking friends, associates, family members, and others for help is a good way to generate an information interview. Prepare well and do your best—even though this is not an employment interview, it might lead to one someday.
  • Initial (or first level or screening). This is typically the first thing that happens after a résumé generates interest. It is usually conducted over the phone or in a neutral setting (e.g., hotel lobby, coffee shop, base education office, or family services center). Another common location for initial interviews is a job fair, where hundreds of short initial interviews occur throughout the day.
  • Follow-up (or second level or site visit or call back). This is your reward for a successful initial interview. It usually occurs at a mutually convenient time and takes place at the potential job site. It can last from several hours to two days. In most cases the company covers all of the associated travel expenses. There is usually a slate of interviews with several people. These people may include your boss-to-be, coworkers, a human resource representative, and subordinates. A tour of the facility and/or the local area is often on the agenda. In most cases the decision to extend an offer is made as a result of the information obtained from the interviews conducted during that visit.
  • Social Interview. This variety is designed to see how you handle yourself in a public or social setting. There is often a meal component and sometimes there is a cocktail reception in the mix. It may be just you and your new boss or a coworker or there could be several additional people involved.
  • Negative Interview. This is a technique rather than a category of interview but it deserves your attention. It is designed to be confrontational and high-stress. The interviewer tries to get you to eliminate yourself. There are three distinct varieties, to which I dedicate an entire chapter of my book. How to handle it? Short answer—do not take the bait and keep smiling!
  • Group Interview. This version consists of multiple candidates being interviewed or observed at the same time. Not only are you and your competition being evaluated but you are also checking each other out. Sometimes the group interview is combined with the social interview, which gives the employer the opportunity to see how you interact with peers and competitors.
  • Panel Interview. Here we have one candidate in front of multiple interviewers at the same time. This tends to be a high stress, rapid fire, and taxing event. The panel measures the candidate's ability to handle pressure and think on his or her feet. The members pay particular attention to the candidate's aptitude in involving and engaging the entire panel, not just the member who happens to have the floor.
  • Day-in-the-field (or ride-along). Although the interview process is typically complete after the follow-up, some companies add another step. The interviews may have been held at an office, but the actual job requires a significant amount of time away from that office. If this requirement is inherent in the job, then it is important for the candidate to also experience that aspect of the job. One way to accomplish that is to have the candidate spend a day in the field with someone who is doing the job. A well-informed candidate is more likely to make the right decision. Interviews for jobs such as sales, field engineer, consultant, and technical rep are likely to include this step.
  • Client Approval. If you are interviewing with a contractor or consulting firm and the position requires you to spend most of your time with a specific client, you may need to be approved by that client before you can be hired. This means an extra round of interviews at the client site.
  • Testing/Evaluation/Case Studies. Many companies will set aside a portion of a site visit or a separate day for formal testing or evaluation. The purpose is to measure aptitude or intelligence as it applies to the job. Although not an interview per se, it is helpful in determining the potential for a solid fit. If the purpose of the test is knowledge-based then you should be forewarned and can study accordingly, however there is little you can do in the way of preparation for aptitude testing.
  • Profiling. Some companies collect historical personal performance data to build a profile of what constitutes a successful employee and what jobs are most likely to utilize the talents of a particular candidate profile. These companies will hire a behavioral analysis company to do a profiling session with you before an offer is extended. This usually takes the form of a question and response survey, either online or via telephone.

Here's one more thing to keep in mind. Regardless of the form or the variety, the interviewer wants answers to these questions: Is this the kind of person we want on our team? Can we make and keep this person happy, now and in the future? Similarly, the candidate needs to know: Are these my kind of people? Is this an organization where I can be productive and happy, both short- and long-term? Positive responses to those questions lead to an offer, an acceptance, and a career.

For a more thorough discussion of this and other military-to-civilian career transition topics, read my book, Out of Uniform (www.out-of-uniform.com).

By Tom Wolfe, Career Coach

© 2014; Tom Wolfe, is an author, columnist, career coach, veteran, and an expert in the field of military-to-civilian career transition. During his career he assisted thousands of service members in their searches for employment, placing more than 3000 in their new jobs. Prior to civilian life, he graduated from the U. S. Naval Academy and served as a surface warfare officer. He teaches transition courses, gives seminars on career and job change, writes about the career transition process, and continues to counsel current and former military personnel. His book, Out of Uniform: Your Guide to a Successful Military-to-Civilian Career Transition, was published by Potomac Books in 2011. Tom lives on the North Carolina coast with his wife, Julie, and their Chesapeake Bay retriever, Maggie.

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9 Reasons an Employer Won't Ever Read Your Military Resume… and What to Do About it-Part 1

By: by Sultan Camp
Reprinted with permission - EveryVeteranHired.com

This is the first in a three-part series.

Dear Military Job Seekers:

We regret to inform you that because we have no idea how to interpret military resumes for civilian jobs, the nation's job market will continue to force veterans to take jobs you're overqualified for or jobs outside your military specialty, delaying your careers at the expense of your salaries for at least a decade.

This is what a rejection letter may look like for your military resume submission, if you're lucky enough to get a rejection letter.

A recent June job report gave veterans a puzzling picture. Employers added 288,000 jobs, the most jobs in more than two years. Unemployment dropped from 6.3% to 6.1%, the lowest it's been since September, 2008. However, the number of veterans unemployed in June was 578,000.

If you haven't figured it out yet, there's stiff competition, and your success lies in how you stand out from your fellow transitioning veterans. Your military resume writing goes far beyond the basic concepts of chronological, functional or combination (see me yawning already?) resume formats.

If you're looking for military resume writing examples, read no further; you can find some good ones here. However, that's for the lazy. If you want to know the things that HR won't tell you, read on.

I'm amused that in today's job market, most service members looking for jobs after the military still depend solely on their resumes. I know that although the debate rages on over whether or not the resume is dying, there is still a need for military job seekers to have a solid one. The biggest need? To have a readable resume.

A well-constructed job search is really a personal project management effort. It's essentially a marketing project where you are the project. So, if you're not looking at the job search this way, you're essentially waiting for someone to offer you something. If you're thinking, I'm submitting resumes and applying for hundreds of jobs online, so I must be doing a job search, you're fooling yourself — and, worse yet, you're being lazy. A sloppy resume is an indication of someone who isn't ready to put out the effort.

Think It's About You? It's Not

When you're struggling with how to write a resume, you're likely focused on yourself. That's why most military professionals commit the cardinal sin of trying to find a military-to-civilian translator or military resume builder. You have questions like "How do I explain what I did in the military?" or "How do I show I have the important skills civilians are looking for?" or "Should I explain why I left this job after such a long time?"

These are all reasonable questions, but it's this focus on you that gets in your way. That's because your resume isn't about you.I know that sounds a bit harsh, but if you're used to reading my other posts, you're used to it by now. Let me say this again: If you're focused on you, you're missing the point. (Click here to tweet this thought.)

If you want your resume to grab the attention of employers, it needs to be about them.

That brings me to the most important point. Your resume isn't a history paper — it's a marketing tool. You have to develop a clear strategy. Only after you've done this will you be able to draft a message that will sell and avoid being called what we recruiters refer to as a "resume spammer" or "crapplicant," someone who is firing lots resumes away hoping one will eventually stick.

Your military resume writing should convey a message that will make recruiters and employers want to call you as soon as they read your resume. That's what your strategy is — it's the overarching message you want to communicate. We often preach this as "Think, Key, Speak" when we train our comrades in communication protocol. So why stop now?

But let me be explicitly clear: when it comes to getting a job, who you know really does matter. No matter how nice your resume is or how great your experience may be, it's all about connections. So you may have some homework to do if you think a resume alone will get it done for you.

I read a lot of hard-copy resumes and resumes that military job seekers like you create using your military awards and evaluations, ONET and VMET. I also see the wreckage of those who have paid so-called "military resume writing" services. So let me give you some reasons why employers will not read your military resume, in a three part series — you asked for meat and potatoes stuff, right?

For our first part of this series you have to know what you're up against:

1. Hiring Managers Are Not Really Trying to Find You

Most HR screeners are in a bad mood. Why? How would you feel if you got 250 resumes to read for each of the 10 positions you have open, and you're not getting any extra pay to pay close attention to any of them?

Most screeners are rushed for time, so they're annoyed by having to read yet another resume and are actually hostile rather than sympathetic. Having to read another resume is a burden that's keeping them from their attention on what they consider much, much more important matters on their daily to-do lists. Trust me on this — watching paint dry on a wall is more appealing to me than reviewing someone's resume. You've got a maximum of six seconds to make an impact, according to this really insightful Ladders study of recruiter behavior.

What are we looking for in six seconds? The study revealed that recruiters spent almost 80% of their resume review time looking at just a few essential elements: your name, current title and company, previous title and company, start and end dates for current and previous positions, where you want to work and education. In the six seconds they spent on these bits of information, they absorbed little else. So whether you want to hear it or not, that narrow focus means that unless you make these four areas extremely easy for them to find within approximately four seconds, the odds are high you'l be instantly passed over.

So, when you write your resume (or have anyone else help you write it), take the context above to heart. You're not going to make the cut if you're not in the same industry, your job titles aren't familiar, you don't have the years of matching experience, you have significant gaps or your salary doesn't match what the company has budgeted for that position.

Most employers are not interested in your personal objectives for your life and your career. They're only interested in how you can help their company solve its problems and achieve its goals — that's why they hire.

2. There Is No Real Military Resume Builder (and You Have No Idea Who Or What You're Up Against)

In the recruiting industry, we have what's known as a "hiring funnel" for every job. This hiring funnel helps recruiters understand how many total applications they need to generate in order to get a single hire or placement. Most military job seekers aren't aware of this, because you simply don't have a "need to know." However, as an applicant, you do need to know. This funnel reveals your chances of success at each step of the hiring process.

For the specific case of an online job posting, 1,000 people (on average) will see a published job posting, and many will look at the job for less than 50 seconds. You have to read the job posting carefully to ensure that you meet the minimum qualifications required.

Out of these 1,000 people, 200 will begin the application process. However, 100 will actually complete the application (surprising, huh?). About 75 of those 100 resumes will be screened out by either the Applicant Tracking Software or a recruiter.

Once past the gatekeepers, 25 resumes will be seen by the hiring manager, 4-6 will be invited for an interview, 1-3 of them will be invited back for final interview, 1 will be offered that job and 80% of those receiving an offer will accept it. Do you see why I use the analogy of paying the lottery when it comes to hitting the "apply" button?

Still not using RSS Feeds and Twitter to get jobs as quickly as possible? Well, knowing now that the first resume hits a company's system 200 seconds after the job is posted; you may need to re-evaluate that strategy. Timing of your submission is critical in today's job market.

Also, this funnel makes HR Professionals some of the seasoned and most skeptical readers in the world. They know that at least half of what they read consists of lies, exaggerations, half-truths and semantic and formatting tricks, such as using white text (do not do this!). They don't accept anything at face value. Remember, as I mentioned, the typical resume reader sees literally thousands of resumes; they know every trick in the book. Make sure to keep that in mind, and you'll have a much better chance of having your resume taken seriously if you're honest in claiming that civilian job experience as your own.

One of your main objectives is to bypass these "gatekeepers" if you can. Unless they have a military background, they are totally unaware of your unique strengths and the value that you can potentially bring to the organization. That's because in most resumes, the person's unique strengths and potential value are buried somewhere in the middle of the resume and not written for a skimmer because they started by using their awards, evaluations and "military to civilian" translators.

3. You're Really Out of Touch and Still Writing Cover Letters

Read a thousand resume articles, you'll get a thousand differing opinions. Who are the authors? What are their backgrounds? Most importantly, are they in the hiring process in their current roles or, at the minimum, networked and connected with those of us in the private sector who are?

Everyone claims to have the secret to resume success. For the longest time, it was "verbs." (This is still the focus in a lot of transition seminars.) Since a verb is an action word, we are led to believe this will make the content more interesting. It doesn't.

Some focus exclusively on numbers. "You've got to have lots of quantitative data in your resume," you're told. As a result, when I'm at job fairs I see resumes that look more like a math problem, with a mind-blowing array of numbers, and I don't believe that they're any more impressive to the typical resume reader than using a bewildering array of verbs. You want to tell stories, not just state facts.

No one will read your resume in detail — that much we all know. Most gatekeepers will skim-read for about six seconds or less. They're looking for certain information first, to see if the resume is worth reading in more detail.

(On a separate note, walking in and dropping off your resume is no longer seen as a good thing. It's actually a little creepy.)

Okay, let me say this one more time in case you missed it: Cover letters are dead. What can you say in a cover letter that you cannot say in a resume? Most of the recruiters I know go straight to your resume. As a matter of fact, a Senior Human Resource Manager friend of mine hadn't read any cover letters in 12 years.

If you do insist on sending a cover letter, or are asked for one specifically, consider using a "T Letter" instead. Don't waste your time sending this to anyone other than directly to a hiring decision-maker, along with your resume via a method that gives you delivery confirmation. Yes, finding out who this person is can be hard. But if it were easy everyone would do it, and you're not trying to be everyone else, are you?

Another thing that is almost never read (sorry to be the bearer of bad news): your list of courses you took in school (military or civilian). If you're experienced, I don't care what military courses you took or what marks you received on them. If you're inexperienced and are looking for a very specialized job, then you need to convince the employer that those specific classes you took and projects you worked on have prepared you sufficiently for the position you're applying for. Providing a list of courses that looks like your military training record is meaningless.

What about your military awards? Keep them for the phone screening or the face-to-face interview. Your hobbies? Personal interests and hobbies have no bearing on a hiring decision. However, it's important to note that if you do come across as likable during the phone screen, you'll probably be asked about these just to put you at ease and to establish some common ground. Tread carefully, though — any hint your hobbies will require time away from work may cost you that job opportunity.

Finally, have a Hotmail or AOL email address? That HR screener may chuckle and ask himself you still have dial-up as well. I highly suggest you change to Gmail, or if you're really savvy you can register your own domain name and use that to show you're in tune with technology.

In my next post, we'll talk about the most important question to ask when you're writing a resume.

What are some of your biggest questions when it comes to writing and submitting a resume? Tweet at us!

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3 Bad Assumptions About Networking for Your Job Search

© Copyright, 2014, Susan P. Joyce. All rights reserved.

Many job seekers have told me how much they hate networking for their job search. They don't like meeting strangers, particularly when they (and the strangers) have "an agenda."

They'd rather spend (waste?) time endlessly clicking on the "Apply" button on job boards than venture out into the scary world of "NETWORKING"!

My favorite networking story: I witnessed three people connect with new jobs based on one conversation. And the conversation happened at the viewing/wake before the funeral of a former colleague. Not your typical networking venue! Just a few people, waiting in line to pay their respects to a deceased former co-worker, and catching up with what they were doing. Bingo! Three job offers! In less than a week!

3 Wrong Assumptions About Networking

1. Networking is hard work.

No. It's not "hard work." If it is hard work for you, change your approach and/or your mindset.

Networking should be seeing people you like, often connecting with people from your past as well as your current life. Catch up on the news — new friends, new interests, new jobs, new opportunities...

Network with people you have something in common with: a current or former employer, a school, a hobby or some other interest, a town or even a neighborhood, a cause, a religion, etc.

Perhaps "socializing" is a more appropriate term for it than "networking." Meet friends for coffee, lunch, a drink, movies, jogging, running, dancing, singing, joining, working, or just talking.

Socialize with the mindset of catching up with old friends. What's happening: What are they doing? How are they doing? What's new with them? Anything you can help them with — and vice versa?

2. Networking means large rooms full of strangers.

This assumption is true only if you choose to attend the kind of events that are in large rooms full of strangers.

If you prefer — and most of us do — networking can be done one-on-one or in smaller groups, often with people you already know or with a mix of strangers and people you know.

As someone who is basically shy, I prefer the smaller groups with a mix of "new" and "old" people as both more comfortable and more interesting since I can catch up with friends and colleagues as well as meeting new people, too. The networking that can be accomplished in those situations is amazing!

3. Networking is "using" people.

I wish I had a nickel for every job seeker who said this to me, and it is SO wrong!

If you view networking as "using" people, you are networking the wrong way. Networking shouldn't be focused on WIIFM ("What's in it for me!).

To be genuine and effective, networking needs to be focused on being helpful to others, rather than using them. Make that introduction (if appropriate). Share information. Ask for opinions. And ask for help, too.

Yes, hopefully, people will help you but not because you have tricked them or coerced them to do it. That would be "using" them.

Resist "keeping score" but do notice if someone is all "take" and no "give." That IS "using" — using you!

Done correctly, networking is mutual support, and the people who help you are helping you voluntarily, perhaps in response to something you have helped them accomplish. Perhaps they have offered you their support without you even asking for it. Or, maybe you reached out and asked for help.

But, it isn't — and it shouldn't feel like — "using" others.

Your Most Powerful Network.

Your strongest network is those people you already know. Perhaps you worked with them in the past. Or perhaps you grew up with them or met them at an event at your child's school. Maybe you belong/belonged to an organization together.

People who are over 40 or 50 have a big advantage in the job market. That's why unemployment is higher for new grads than for Boomers. "Mature" people have an easier time job hunting now because of the size of their networks, particularly their former co-workers and bosses — when they pay attention to them. Yes, you should continue to expand your network, but it shouldn't be unpleasant to do.

More Bad Assumptions About Job Search:

3 Bad Assumptions About Job Interviews

3 Bad Assumptions AFTER Your Job Interview

3 Bad Assumptions About Job Postings

3 Bad Assumptions About Social Media and Job Search

3 Bad Assumptions About Online Job Search

3 Bad Assumptions About Your Resume

3 Dangerous Assumptions About Layoffs

 

About the Author… Online job search expert Susan P. Joyce Online job search expert Susan P. Joyce has been observing the online job search world and teaching online job search skills since 1995. Susan is a two-time layoff “graduate” who has worked in human resources at Harvard University and in a compensation consulting firm. In 2011, NETability purchased WorkCoachCafe.com, and Susan has been editor and publisher of WorkCoach since then. Susan also edits and publishes Job-Hunt.org, is a Visiting Scholar at the MIT Sloan School of Management, and a columnist on HuffingtonPost. Follow Susan on Twitter at @jobhuntorg and on Google+

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Vets in workforce ramp up as military gears down

By Emery P. Dalesio
The Associated Press - Reprinted with Permission

FORT BRAGG, N.C. - About 1,200 soldiers were ordered and urged by Fort Bragg brass to prepare Wednesday for their future mission: transition to a civilian job.

This sprawling Army post was part of an expanding effort to help soon-to-be veterans as the American military downsizes with the end of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Airborne soldiers in maroon berets and corporals in camouflage uniforms prepared for the end of their military careers by meeting civilian employers, learning to interview and write resumes, and scouting the benefits available to veterans starting the rest of their lives.

The two-day transition summit was the third in a series at Army bases this year organized by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Foundation, the Pentagon and the departments of Veterans Affairs and Labor.

"Every one of us is going to retire. The Army is not our only life," said Maj. Gen. Clarence K.K. Chin, Fort Bragg's interim commander. "The challenge is education. It's all free. It's their taxpayer dollars at work. But you can't use it if you don't know."

About 8,500 of Fort Bragg's 57,000 soldiers leave for civilian life every year, Chinn said, and the pressure to help them find work is increasing as the Army faces one of the deepest draw-downs since World War II. The Army plans to reduce its fighting force from a high of about 570,000 at the peak of the Iraq war to 490,000.

The national unemployment rate for all veterans over 18 was 6 percent in July, slightly below the 6.2 percent jobless rate for all workers. But conditions are hard for newer vets. The jobless rate for veterans who served since 2001 dipped last year to 9 percent, according to an annual report by the Labor Department released in March. For young veterans between 18 and 24, the unemployment rate in 2013 was a very high 21.4 percent.

Lt. Mary Kolars, 26, of Rochester, Minnesota, graduated from officer candidate school in the four years since she joined the Army. But even officers face being forced out of a military career, so she wanted to be ready.

"You definitely don't want to be caught unprepared. Downsizing is on a lot of people's minds. That's definitely one of the reasons why these transition workshops have become such a big thing," she said.

Recruiters for Duke Energy Inc. were on the hunt for soldiers with scientific, technical and management experience to fill dozens of open jobs from accounting to nuclear plant maintenance. Former Navy nuclear engineer Jim Louy and Steve Moore, a former artilleryman, helped service members explain their military skills to human resources colleagues at the nation's largest electricity company. A background in artillery means a soldier is accustomed to working outdoors and loud noises, so working at a power plant or on transmission lines could be a good fit, Louy said.

"Generating power, at the end of the day, it's a boots-on-the-ground, turning wrenches, get-your-fingernails-dirty job every day. So those people who understand technical skills, who can read and translate what they've read into an actionable item, those are the skill-sets that work great," Louy said.

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